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	<title>Comments on: Do most educational games suck?</title>
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	<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html</link>
	<description>Technology, leadership, and the future of schools</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 14:42:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Nicolas</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-1#comment-98698</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicolas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-98698</guid>
		<description>I am currently writing my dissertation on educational gaming (I am studying animation at the moment) and I came across this article, its a shame that most of the games used for education really do suck, because most programmers with talent just move on to game companies that have no financial incetive of making something for education....

well I lie there are a few, companies like Creative assembly and Paradox interactive have been making amazing historical games, while Valve&#039;s portal 2 will clearly teach children a bit about momentum. the problem is that in most countries the educational system is too rigid, and some times teachers simply have no idea what games are out there, and while it might be hard to make maths fun , if for example you use it like in Europa Universalis III (empire building game) to keep the finances of your empire working people do learn very quickly what to do, now if you have ever played this game you know the maths is very basic and the gameplay very hard but I am sure this can be fixed in the future.


P.S Because of that game I now know random regions and cities all over Europe and I learnt how inflation works and what centralisation and decentralisation do in a country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am currently writing my dissertation on educational gaming (I am studying animation at the moment) and I came across this article, its a shame that most of the games used for education really do suck, because most programmers with talent just move on to game companies that have no financial incetive of making something for education&#8230;.</p>
<p>well I lie there are a few, companies like Creative assembly and Paradox interactive have been making amazing historical games, while Valve&#8217;s portal 2 will clearly teach children a bit about momentum. the problem is that in most countries the educational system is too rigid, and some times teachers simply have no idea what games are out there, and while it might be hard to make maths fun , if for example you use it like in Europa Universalis III (empire building game) to keep the finances of your empire working people do learn very quickly what to do, now if you have ever played this game you know the maths is very basic and the gameplay very hard but I am sure this can be fixed in the future.</p>
<p>P.S Because of that game I now know random regions and cities all over Europe and I learnt how inflation works and what centralisation and decentralisation do in a country.</p>
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		<title>By: Mandy Kirk</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-89476</link>
		<dc:creator>Mandy Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2012 05:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-89476</guid>
		<description>I worked in educational software for 15 years, from 1990-2005, and am very sad to report that the reason there aren&#039;t high quality educational games is that the money isn&#039;t there to pay for the development costs. When companies could charge $40-60, games like Zoombinis and Carmen Sandiego were made, but when the industry shifted to selling CDs for $5.99 at Staples, there was no funding for new products. &quot;Educational&quot; is the kiss of death for software today; the best games are &quot;stealth learning&quot; like &quot;Chocolatier&quot; and &quot;Azada&quot;, with good game play but no overt curriculum--embedded puzzles and simulations. If only there were money for development...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worked in educational software for 15 years, from 1990-2005, and am very sad to report that the reason there aren&#8217;t high quality educational games is that the money isn&#8217;t there to pay for the development costs. When companies could charge $40-60, games like Zoombinis and Carmen Sandiego were made, but when the industry shifted to selling CDs for $5.99 at Staples, there was no funding for new products. &#8220;Educational&#8221; is the kiss of death for software today; the best games are &#8220;stealth learning&#8221; like &#8220;Chocolatier&#8221; and &#8220;Azada&#8221;, with good game play but no overt curriculum&#8211;embedded puzzles and simulations. If only there were money for development&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Heather B</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-62335</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-62335</guid>
		<description>I used to teach a problem solving course for elementary students.  Since each room of the school had a Promethean board, I spent a lot of time researching online trying to find engaging games that we could play together as a class on the whiteboard.  All of my students LOVED and I highly recommend the games on hoodamath.com.  They have games that reinforce basic mathematics skills, but they also have a huge selection of games that elicit critical thinking and problem solving skills.  Of course they do not compare to the level of visuals in the video games pictured above, but they are stimulating.  I know many of my students began to use this website whenever they had free time during computer class and at home.  That definitely says something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to teach a problem solving course for elementary students.  Since each room of the school had a Promethean board, I spent a lot of time researching online trying to find engaging games that we could play together as a class on the whiteboard.  All of my students LOVED and I highly recommend the games on hoodamath.com.  They have games that reinforce basic mathematics skills, but they also have a huge selection of games that elicit critical thinking and problem solving skills.  Of course they do not compare to the level of visuals in the video games pictured above, but they are stimulating.  I know many of my students began to use this website whenever they had free time during computer class and at home.  That definitely says something.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve &#124; Sokikom</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-61966</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve &#124; Sokikom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 15:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-61966</guid>
		<description>Does seem like so many &quot;educational games&quot; are animated versions of homework. Merging education and entertainment is almost as much of an art as it is science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does seem like so many &#8220;educational games&#8221; are animated versions of homework. Merging education and entertainment is almost as much of an art as it is science.</p>
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		<title>By: Sherri Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-56192</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherri Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-56192</guid>
		<description>I hate coming late to the conversation :( - but thanks for this article and all of the great comments and conversation.  Hope to catch up with you all on technology-based curriculum in 2011.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate coming late to the conversation <img src='http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/site/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' />  &#8211; but thanks for this article and all of the great comments and conversation.  Hope to catch up with you all on technology-based curriculum in 2011.</p>
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		<title>By: David Spiro</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-36462</link>
		<dc:creator>David Spiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-36462</guid>
		<description>Hello, I am an American English teacher with 20+ consecutive years of teaching, including in four universities.  
You may be interested in 114 interactive games for learning English.  These do not insult the intelligence of adults.  They could all be programmed for computer use and sale on CDs.  Unfortunately, I don´t know anything about programming.

Can you suggest something?

David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, I am an American English teacher with 20+ consecutive years of teaching, including in four universities.<br />
You may be interested in 114 interactive games for learning English.  These do not insult the intelligence of adults.  They could all be programmed for computer use and sale on CDs.  Unfortunately, I don´t know anything about programming.</p>
<p>Can you suggest something?</p>
<p>David</p>
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		<title>By: Classroots.org - Pwn your textbooks</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-36147</link>
		<dc:creator>Classroots.org - Pwn your textbooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 02:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-36147</guid>
		<description>[...] are educational games that we can use to try to make content fun. Many fail. Some might [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] are educational games that we can use to try to make content fun. Many fail. Some might [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dean Groom</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-34637</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Groom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Oct 2010 02:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-34637</guid>
		<description>Does the quality of the graphics matter when it comes to educational games?
What is it that makes a game educational in the first place? I argue that the games cited here as educational are in-fact instructional systems focusing on creating ad validating productivity, comprehension and competence in a narrow area. They also assume that the user has the internal specialized knowledge needed to read the game as being educational. So yes, graphics matter - because graphics are a literacy, and like the written word, can be primitive and clumsy or stunningly evocative or a deeper idea or meaning.


Or is the quality of the learning experience enough?

How are you measuring quality and learning. The Educational games you cite are operate at an entirely uni-structural level. Verbs we can apply are - memorise, identify, recognise, count, define, draw, find, label, match, name, quote, recall, recite, order, tell, write, intimate. Why? Because instructional designers make terrible game designers for one and secondly because students have to be able to move past this level to more complex decoding of why they are doing it. In themselves they have un-attractive goals. You can add all the graphics you like, but if you fail to move past and provide fluid, iterative pathways to and from this level or &#039;learning&#039; it&#039;s just plain boring and not worthy of being called a game.
How bad are these games as a learning experience? No worse than the experience in a classroom founded on Blooms Taxonomy and blogging. They too fail to understand the learning archetypes in the games that you cite later. In my view - with invention, you can use most commercial games on Xbox, Playstation, DS etc to create amazing learning experiences. It is a sad reality that most teachers believe that Web2.0 can do similar. It cannot. Consider that games are a document - but that most teachers are completely unable to read. In fact 3/4 year olds are highly capable learners without the literacies we assume we must first teach - letters, number, shapes - Any 4 year can play highly complex games, because the games are in themselves complex knowledge and learning systems.

What&#039;s out there?

I challenge anyone to a duel. Take a topic, take your content, take your outcomes. You select you most powerful Web2.0 tools and methods, and I&#039;ll use non Web2.0 and a commercial game system. At the end, kids present their work and defend it. I&#039;ll win - because educational game developers are driven by content based goals, and must serve their market equally ignorant of how games work. In professional development of teachers - playing Warcraft with them will change their worldview and make them far more inventive that giving them information and hope they use it. Why? Because in playing from scratch in Warcraft, I can explain how today&#039;s 1 billion gamers learn. From that you can easily rethink how the classroom can work.

However, I am an outlier ... and possibly insane according to the norms reformers.

www.deangroom.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the quality of the graphics matter when it comes to educational games?<br />
What is it that makes a game educational in the first place? I argue that the games cited here as educational are in-fact instructional systems focusing on creating ad validating productivity, comprehension and competence in a narrow area. They also assume that the user has the internal specialized knowledge needed to read the game as being educational. So yes, graphics matter &#8211; because graphics are a literacy, and like the written word, can be primitive and clumsy or stunningly evocative or a deeper idea or meaning.</p>
<p>Or is the quality of the learning experience enough?</p>
<p>How are you measuring quality and learning. The Educational games you cite are operate at an entirely uni-structural level. Verbs we can apply are &#8211; memorise, identify, recognise, count, define, draw, find, label, match, name, quote, recall, recite, order, tell, write, intimate. Why? Because instructional designers make terrible game designers for one and secondly because students have to be able to move past this level to more complex decoding of why they are doing it. In themselves they have un-attractive goals. You can add all the graphics you like, but if you fail to move past and provide fluid, iterative pathways to and from this level or &#8216;learning&#8217; it&#8217;s just plain boring and not worthy of being called a game.<br />
How bad are these games as a learning experience? No worse than the experience in a classroom founded on Blooms Taxonomy and blogging. They too fail to understand the learning archetypes in the games that you cite later. In my view &#8211; with invention, you can use most commercial games on Xbox, Playstation, DS etc to create amazing learning experiences. It is a sad reality that most teachers believe that Web2.0 can do similar. It cannot. Consider that games are a document &#8211; but that most teachers are completely unable to read. In fact 3/4 year olds are highly capable learners without the literacies we assume we must first teach &#8211; letters, number, shapes &#8211; Any 4 year can play highly complex games, because the games are in themselves complex knowledge and learning systems.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s out there?</p>
<p>I challenge anyone to a duel. Take a topic, take your content, take your outcomes. You select you most powerful Web2.0 tools and methods, and I&#8217;ll use non Web2.0 and a commercial game system. At the end, kids present their work and defend it. I&#8217;ll win &#8211; because educational game developers are driven by content based goals, and must serve their market equally ignorant of how games work. In professional development of teachers &#8211; playing Warcraft with them will change their worldview and make them far more inventive that giving them information and hope they use it. Why? Because in playing from scratch in Warcraft, I can explain how today&#8217;s 1 billion gamers learn. From that you can easily rethink how the classroom can work.</p>
<p>However, I am an outlier &#8230; and possibly insane according to the norms reformers.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.deangroom.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.deangroom.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-28298</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2010 03:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-28298</guid>
		<description>From practical experience - I have been unable to get my kids to play any of the free games more than once (if at all).
Even most commercial math games IMO miss the mark, hence I created http://mathgamereview.com to share my experiences. Two games that are excellent math games are Timez Attack (multiplication) - http://bigbrainz.com and MathRider (addition to division) - http://math-rider.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From practical experience &#8211; I have been unable to get my kids to play any of the free games more than once (if at all).<br />
Even most commercial math games IMO miss the mark, hence I created <a href="http://mathgamereview.com" rel="nofollow">http://mathgamereview.com</a> to share my experiences. Two games that are excellent math games are Timez Attack (multiplication) &#8211; <a href="http://bigbrainz.com" rel="nofollow">http://bigbrainz.com</a> and MathRider (addition to division) &#8211; <a href="http://math-rider.com" rel="nofollow">http://math-rider.com</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: mark in cinci</title>
		<link>http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html/comment-page-2#comment-20614</link>
		<dc:creator>mark in cinci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 04:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://annahein.com/2009/07/do-most-educational-games-suck.html#comment-20614</guid>
		<description>Yes, I am going to say that in general education games suck when compared to modern games (off the shelf variety) that kids are drawn to.  Graphics and gaming experience are huge and sadly too many of our education games are still drill and kill (as in interest).  I don&#039;t think the market and therefore budget is there.  The gaming industry is huge (bigger than the movie industry) and a high quality game will have millions in development and it will sell to a huge market.  The ed. market is big, but too splintered to have the same high quality games made so we have to settle for the low quality single purpose games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I am going to say that in general education games suck when compared to modern games (off the shelf variety) that kids are drawn to.  Graphics and gaming experience are huge and sadly too many of our education games are still drill and kill (as in interest).  I don&#8217;t think the market and therefore budget is there.  The gaming industry is huge (bigger than the movie industry) and a high quality game will have millions in development and it will sell to a huge market.  The ed. market is big, but too splintered to have the same high quality games made so we have to settle for the low quality single purpose games.</p>
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