Comments on: Low ability teachers, low ability students?

By: Things I Know 261 of 365: Teachers aren’t stupid at Autodizactic

Things I Know 261 of 365: Teachers aren’t stupid at Autodizactic — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:21:45 +0000

[...] don’t want to re-write Wees or Ferlazzo’s argument or this relevant piece from Scott [...]

By: Charlie A. Roy

Charlie A. Roy — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

Tough one. Perhaps more rigorous standards as one advances in education would help. Some private schools require teachers to earn a master’s degree within so many years of beginning and then apply or be in process for national certification after this point. Helps weed out those who don’t want to work at constantly improving.

By: oreneta

oreneta — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

Assuming this study is robust, then it does seem accurate that people with higher scores leave teaching more rapidly however, the assumption that the higher scores = higher intelligence is not questioned in your post, and that is where I find a flaw in your argument. Do these test scores actually measure the intelligence of the teachers?

By: Jonathan Pratt

Jonathan Pratt — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

I’m on-board with the idea that smarter teachers are going to be the best at promoting student learning. But I’d like to echo and add to Orenta’s point above .. if we’re railing against using standardized tests as such an important measure of current student learning, how can we maintain the integrity of our argument by claiming that the same type of testing is an important and valid measure for teachers’ knowledge? Though anecdotal, I know plenty of people who’ve declined in intelligence / knowledge / learning capacity after the structural support of family and high school settings are gone, which can have a strong positive influence on college entrance exam scores. Also, I know plenty of people who have developed incredibly as learners both in college and post-college, particularly in the context of teaching others. So, again, I’m all for getting the smartest teachers possible in the classroom, and finding ways to keep them there – but I think it’s a bit disingenuous, for multiple reasons, to use college entrance scores on standardized exams to make the point.

By: Bethany Smith

Bethany Smith — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

I wonder how many of these teachers ended up moving into administrative or higher academia positions? I am a former teacher in the K-12 system that happens to be at a university now. I’d be classified as a “former teacher” in those terms, even though I now teach in a different fashion.

Or does that even matter, because the issue is losing good classroom teachers?

By: eduwonkette

eduwonkette — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

I’m going to disagree with Jonathan and Orneta – these studies (and many others) find a consistent relationship between teachers’ scores and student outcomes. Whether we choose to equate “intelligence” with scores, teachers’ test scores matter for student learning.

Re what to do: Teachers with high scores have better salary options out of teaching, so we will need to change compensation practices if we want to keep these folks in education.

By: Sonja

Sonja — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

This hits close to home because hubbie (who has a master’s degree in Physics and certified to teach through calculus) is leaving the classroom this year after 17 years. Why? Frustrations with student apathy and administrative weirdness. For us, it’s not a salary issue. Will he come back? I don’t know. I do know that the students that will miss him in the years to come – will miss out on an incredible resource and opportunity to learn from one of the best teachers I’ve ever known.

By: Scott McLeod

Scott McLeod — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

@Orenata: These are just some of the studies; there are others too. All five of the studies I cited are from an absolutely top-notch journal (Greenwald, Guarino, & Wayne), massive large-scale national research initiatives (Anderson), or a pretty highly-respected think tank (Ferguson). FYI, there also are a goodly number of studies that show teacher IQ is positively related with student achievement.

@Jonathan: I think people are ‘railing’ against use of standardized tests as THE measure of student learning, not A measure of student learning. There is a place for standardized tests for both students and teachers, no? Also, it’s important that we not refute large-scale research with anecdotal local evidence. For example, to say that most elementary teachers are women is not to say that all elementary teachers are women. Large-scale research illustrates general trends which (hopefully) are useful for policymaking.

@Bethany: Yes, you’d be a ‘leaver.’ And, yes, the issue is how to keep bright teachers in the K-12 classroom.

By: Bill Ferriter

Bill Ferriter — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

The ‘wonkette wrote:
Re what to do: Teachers with high scores have better salary options out of teaching, so we will need to change compensation practices if we want to keep these folks in education.

Do you think this is the key issue in the whole conversation? Are we woefully unprepared to keep top performers in education because we have a stagnant compensation system—and our professional organizations fight to protect that system at every turn?

Think about the benefits that teaching offers: affective rewards, job security, pensions (in most places).

Pretty attractive to a candidate in 1973, right? After all, that was an era when pretty much everyone got one job and held onto it for life.

Today’s professional has no expectation of the 30 year career at all. What’s the statistic? Most people have 8 different jobs by the time they’re 30?

The top performers in education today don’t find inherent value in the kinds of perks offered by our profession—-and they don’t have any qualms about walking away from job security and a pension.

The kicker, then, seems to be redesigning the compensation (which includes more than simply salary) system in education to more accurately reflect today’s vision of a “career.”

Does this resonate with anyone else? Is it a pipe dream that we’ll never be able to bring to reality?

What’s the first step towards seeing compensation redesigned—and who’s got to take it?

Bill Ferriter

By: Scott Elias

Scott Elias — Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000

This is VERY interesting. I’m sensing the beginnings of a dissertation topic welling up here…