Comments on: Duty of care http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html Technology, leadership, and the future of schools Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:00:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Rick http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14001 Rick Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14001 Scott, our deputy superintendent just finished his doctorate in education. His thesis had to do with teacher retention and attrition. One of the biggest deciding factors for people leaving the field of education wasn't low pay, big class sizes, or even parent/student behaviors. Their main reason for leaving had much more to do with not being supported professionally during their first few years of employment. Instead of just letting good teachers flounder, steps are being taken in our district to develop PLC's and good mentorship programs. Scott, our deputy superintendent just finished his doctorate in education. His thesis had to do with teacher retention and attrition. One of the biggest deciding factors for people leaving the field of education wasn’t low pay, big class sizes, or even parent/student behaviors. Their main reason for leaving had much more to do with not being supported professionally during their first few years of employment. Instead of just letting good teachers flounder, steps are being taken in our district to develop PLC’s and good mentorship programs.

]]> By: Scott McLeod http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14002 Scott McLeod Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14002 Thanks for the comment, Rick. We've known about good teacher induction for decades now. Yet, like for good staff development, we fail to see best practices in most school systems. This is what Richard Elmore means when he says that if educators were doctors, they'd be brought up on malpractice charges: http://tinyurl.com/32945q http://tinyurl.com/34db3f I would probably add to your list teachers' lack of opportunity to do meaningful work in creative, individually-validating ways. The nail that sticks up still gets hammered down pretty hard in schools (whether the nail is an innovative teacher or administrator). Sometimes it gets hammered down from above. Sometimes, as my former colleague Dr. Jen York-Barr used to say, the 'crab bucket culture' of education rears its ugly head: http://tinyurl.com/2kogro Thanks for the comment, Rick. We’ve known about good teacher induction for decades now. Yet, like for good staff development, we fail to see best practices in most school systems. This is what Richard Elmore means when he says that if educators were doctors, they’d be brought up on malpractice charges:

http://tinyurl.com/32945q
http://tinyurl.com/34db3f

I would probably add to your list teachers’ lack of opportunity to do meaningful work in creative, individually-validating ways. The nail that sticks up still gets hammered down pretty hard in schools (whether the nail is an innovative teacher or administrator). Sometimes it gets hammered down from above. Sometimes, as my former colleague Dr. Jen York-Barr used to say, the ‘crab bucket culture’ of education rears its ugly head:

http://tinyurl.com/2kogro

]]> By: Scott Elias http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14003 Scott Elias Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14003 I'm in the "Gen X" category on the graph and I did, in fact, leave education after my first four years in the classroom. I spent two years in the private sector as a data quality consultant for a Big 5 accounting firm. The work was interesting, challenging, and rewarding, but I ultimately came back to education because I was tired of spending 3 weeks of every month travelling. Of course, it also helped that the position I came back to was a Technology Coordinator position at a magnet school for international business and technology - I taught two classes of Oracle database design and spent the rest of my time working on getting kids and teachers connected with technology. It was the principal there who strongly encouraged me to get my administrative credentials and I'm glad I did. If I can do my small part to keep young teachers motivated and involved in the school, then I'm setting up the system for my two kids when they get older. Another issue that may play into this is the way we as a system tend to cannibalize our young -- we give them 3 preps of low-level classes, make them push a cart through crowded hallways as they travel from room to room, "ask" them to coach a sport and/or sponsor a class. I’m in the “Gen X” category on the graph and I did, in fact, leave education after my first four years in the classroom. I spent two years in the private sector as a data quality consultant for a Big 5 accounting firm.

The work was interesting, challenging, and rewarding, but I ultimately came back to education because I was tired of spending 3 weeks of every month travelling. Of course, it also helped that the position I came back to was a Technology Coordinator position at a magnet school for international business and technology – I taught two classes of Oracle database design and spent the rest of my time working on getting kids and teachers connected with technology.

It was the principal there who strongly encouraged me to get my administrative credentials and I’m glad I did. If I can do my small part to keep young teachers motivated and involved in the school, then I’m setting up the system for my two kids when they get older.

Another issue that may play into this is the way we as a system tend to cannibalize our young — we give them 3 preps of low-level classes, make them push a cart through crowded hallways as they travel from room to room, “ask” them to coach a sport and/or sponsor a class.

]]> By: Kelly Christopherson http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14004 Kelly Christopherson Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14004 "Trial by fire" That is what we do to young teachers and, from my experience, young administrators. We discuss mentoring and know how it helps those new to either position in the profession but we don't do it enough. There are examples of success with mentoring but they are few and far between. For some reason there is still an attitude of "Well I survived and, if they're teacher material, so will they." which just doesn't fit anymore. I recently took part in a conversation regarding a local contract where a veteran teacher commented that "I've done my extra-curricular so it doesn't matter what they offer for compensation, it won't help me. I expect to get more for me." This is what young teachers are up against. No wonder they are leaving. Being an administrator, I have learned the ropes via the "trial by fire" method and, thankfully, stuck around to make it through but still am less than enthralled because we continue to allow those who are seeking new ways and new ideas, to languish on their own with little to no recognition while we support and promote those who follow the company line. One thing that I found interesting was the low level of teachers in the 40ish range. What's going to happen when we no longer have enough teachers with experience who can move up and fill the senior positions when the time comes? Will we have more trial by fire? I'm not sure that's the best way to run a system. “Trial by fire” That is what we do to young teachers and, from my experience, young administrators. We discuss mentoring and know how it helps those new to either position in the profession but we don’t do it enough. There are examples of success with mentoring but they are few and far between. For some reason there is still an attitude of “Well I survived and, if they’re teacher material, so will they.” which just doesn’t fit anymore. I recently took part in a conversation regarding a local contract where a veteran teacher commented that “I’ve done my extra-curricular so it doesn’t matter what they offer for compensation, it won’t help me. I expect to get more for me.” This is what young teachers are up against. No wonder they are leaving. Being an administrator, I have learned the ropes via the “trial by fire” method and, thankfully, stuck around to make it through but still am less than enthralled because we continue to allow those who are seeking new ways and new ideas, to languish on their own with little to no recognition while we support and promote those who follow the company line. One thing that I found interesting was the low level of teachers in the 40ish range. What’s going to happen when we no longer have enough teachers with experience who can move up and fill the senior positions when the time comes? Will we have more trial by fire? I’m not sure that’s the best way to run a system.

]]> By: Dan Meyer http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14005 Dan Meyer Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14005 I got my credential and interviewed at a school where new teachers were assigned at maximum two preps, two classrooms. 20-year veterans were teaching remedial Algebra across three classrooms, etc, etc. I didn't sign on but I thought it was a great idea then and even now as someone who would've been assigned several preps and several rooms. I also think paying me more money is a great idea. I got my credential and interviewed at a school where new teachers were assigned at maximum two preps, two classrooms. 20-year veterans were teaching remedial Algebra across three classrooms, etc, etc.

I didn’t sign on but I thought it was a great idea then and even now as someone who would’ve been assigned several preps and several rooms. I also think paying me more money is a great idea.

]]> By: Mike Antonucci http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14006 Mike Antonucci Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14006 I've been riding this horse for a long time - to no avail - but the numbers don't support an alarmist view. The U.S. Department of Education statistics reveal we have been - and projections say we will continue - hiring teachers in numbers far greater than replacement levels. There is a certain level of built-in attrition in all professions, but teaching - statistically an overwhelming female profession - will have additional attrition as the veterans retire and are increasingly replaced by women in their childbearing years. The latest school staffing survey by USDOE revealed more teachers left the profession because of pregnancy, child-rearing, or family and personal reasons than retired, or left for money or working condition reasons. Finally, there's no reason to believe attrition among Generation Y teachers is any greater than Generation Y attrition in any other profession. In fact, there is much evidence that local government (a category into which most teachers fall) may boast one of the most stable workforces in the country. I’ve been riding this horse for a long time – to no avail – but the numbers don’t support an alarmist view.

The U.S. Department of Education statistics reveal we have been – and projections say we will continue – hiring teachers in numbers far greater than replacement levels.

There is a certain level of built-in attrition in all professions, but teaching – statistically an overwhelming female profession – will have additional attrition as the veterans retire and are increasingly replaced by women in their childbearing years.

The latest school staffing survey by USDOE revealed more teachers left the profession because of pregnancy, child-rearing, or family and personal reasons than retired, or left for money or working condition reasons.

Finally, there’s no reason to believe attrition among Generation Y teachers is any greater than Generation Y attrition in any other profession. In fact, there is much evidence that local government (a category into which most teachers fall) may boast one of the most stable workforces in the country.

]]> By: Scott McLeod http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14007 Scott McLeod Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14007 Thanks for the comments, Mike. The graph shows that more folks are leaving than entering. It also shows a clear and steady uptick in the number of leavers starting in the mid-1990s. These data are in direct opposition to what you're saying. So now we have to ask who's right? The feds or NCTAF? I'm familiar with the SASS - would love to see some links from you to some alternative data / charts. I don't know if GenY attrition is worse in education than other professions or not (although NCTAF does have some slides showing that the age distribution of teachers is markedly different from both the overall civilian labor force and registered nurses). I'm also not sure if it matters if GenY is also finding other professions to be unfulfilling. Bottom line is that, if the NCTAF data are correct, there's a problem that needs fixing, particularly if current student enrollment projections (a bigger wave than the Baby Boomers) are correct. On a side note, I've been following your work for years (since the early 1990s). Thanks for continually bringing fresh perspectives to the issues surrounding teacher unions. Thanks for the comments, Mike. The graph shows that more folks are leaving than entering. It also shows a clear and steady uptick in the number of leavers starting in the mid-1990s. These data are in direct opposition to what you’re saying. So now we have to ask who’s right? The feds or NCTAF? I’m familiar with the SASS – would love to see some links from you to some alternative data / charts.

I don’t know if GenY attrition is worse in education than other professions or not (although NCTAF does have some slides showing that the age distribution of teachers is markedly different from both the overall civilian labor force and registered nurses). I’m also not sure if it matters if GenY is also finding other professions to be unfulfilling. Bottom line is that, if the NCTAF data are correct, there’s a problem that needs fixing, particularly if current student enrollment projections (a bigger wave than the Baby Boomers) are correct.

On a side note, I’ve been following your work for years (since the early 1990s). Thanks for continually bringing fresh perspectives to the issues surrounding teacher unions.

]]> By: Mike Antonucci http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14008 Mike Antonucci Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14008 Hey Scott: Thanks for the kind words. I don't want to try to recap years of stats in this small space, but you can find the USDOE enrollment vs. hiring numbers (both historical and projections) at: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/projections/ The stability of the teacher force compared to other professions is based on another NCES staffing survey, which I reference at: http://www.eiaonline.com/archives/20040426.htm (see the end of Item #2) plus there's the evidence of the MetLife Survey of the American Teacher, linked here: http://www.eiaonline.com/archives/20061016.htm along with a lot of other stuff I've gathered. I would never suggest NCTAF is using bad numbers, but they may not be presenting all the facts. Check this out for an example: http://www.eiaonline.com/2007/06/teacher-turnover-study-examines-59.html One last point: Aging teachers mirror an aging populace which means diminished growth in K-12 enrollment compared to recent years. The USDOE projections and current numbers nationwide bear that out. Hey Scott:

Thanks for the kind words. I don’t want to try to recap years of stats in this small space, but you can find the USDOE enrollment vs. hiring numbers (both historical and projections) at:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/projections/

The stability of the teacher force compared to other professions is based on another NCES staffing survey, which I reference at:

http://www.eiaonline.com/archives/20040426.htm (see the end of Item #2)

plus there’s the evidence of the MetLife Survey of the American Teacher, linked here:

http://www.eiaonline.com/archives/20061016.htm

along with a lot of other stuff I’ve gathered.

I would never suggest NCTAF is using bad numbers, but they may not be presenting all the facts. Check this out for an example:

http://www.eiaonline.com/2007/06/teacher-turnover-study-examines-59.html

One last point: Aging teachers mirror an aging populace which means diminished growth in K-12 enrollment compared to recent years. The USDOE projections and current numbers nationwide bear that out.

]]> By: Scott McLeod http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14009 Scott McLeod Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14009 Thanks for the links, Mike. I'll check 'em out. Everything I've been reading says that the total number of Generation Yers is close to that of the Baby Boomers. Maybe that's what I was thinking of when I mentioned enrollment projections because I can't recall offhand what numbers I've seen for the generation that's starting school now... Thanks for the links, Mike. I’ll check ‘em out.

Everything I’ve been reading says that the total number of Generation Yers is close to that of the Baby Boomers. Maybe that’s what I was thinking of when I mentioned enrollment projections because I can’t recall offhand what numbers I’ve seen for the generation that’s starting school now…

]]> By: Scott McLeod http://dangerouslyirrelevant.org/2007/10/duty-of-care.html/comment-page-1#comment-14010 Scott McLeod Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:00:00 +0000 http://annahein.com/2007/10/duty-of-care.html#comment-14010 Here's another post on the topic, courtesy of Joanne Jacobs: http://tinyurl.com/2rl5ga Here’s another post on the topic, courtesy of Joanne Jacobs:

http://tinyurl.com/2rl5ga

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